tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post5595518267559313929..comments2023-06-12T04:37:58.897-04:00Comments on Toothface: The Liberation of Story Truth: Form Criticism When Applied to Genesis 1-11Lukehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03734930079710820207noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-6300696967064812092010-01-27T10:36:23.503-05:002010-01-27T10:36:23.503-05:00Well there are elements, i could have gone more su...Well there are elements, i could have gone more supernatural.. i guess i'm more western than i want to realize ;-)<br /><br />take for example: "a male and female red tailed hawks" and "Even Eve took notice." neither of these are verifiable. same with "But you DID catch a fish." i don't fish ;-) <br /><br />i guess what i'm after is placing value on the subjective. telling tall tales is something inherent in humanity. look at "bar tales" that I hear anytime i sit down to enjoy a frosty brew. there are elements of truth in stories. and even if a story is completely fabricated, like Huckleberry Finn or War and Peace, these stories tell us something of the subjective human experience. <br /><br />is there a difference between empirical truth and story truth? absolutely! i think that is what AG was saying there.. we can't lose sight of the difference between the messenger (science, story, whatever) and what it points to (truth? Truth?).Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734930079710820207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-46019487809498714992010-01-27T07:37:52.407-05:002010-01-27T07:37:52.407-05:00Luke,
I wrote a post addressing this issue, if you...Luke,<br />I <a href="http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/metaphorical-vs-literal-truth/" rel="nofollow">wrote a post</a> addressing this issue, if you have time or are interested:Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-46309027246971923702010-01-26T18:04:49.562-05:002010-01-26T18:04:49.562-05:00PS - I checked out that other seminarian post on m...PS - I checked out that other seminarian post on myth. I think he misunderstands an important part of the issue too. It all revolves around what you want to call True -- how much you want to strip the word "true" of any significant meaning.Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-1451199394563221232010-01-26T17:50:15.228-05:002010-01-26T17:50:15.228-05:00@ Luke
I humbly submit that you may be misunderst...@ Luke<br /><br />I humbly submit that you may be misunderstanding the article. I will write a short post recommending the article and try to pre-empt some of the misunderstandings I am wondering if you will have.<br /><br />Concerning the Hawk story.<br />Both are true in this case -- no metaphorically true is claimed.<br /><br />Concerning fist story.<br />The emotion is that you caught a big fish. But you DID catch a fish, the rest was hyperbole.<br /><br />Your examples did NOT address the main point of the essay. You need to address the essay and not how wonderful stories can be. IMHO<br /><br />As you know, I write stories too and capitalize on imagery and style. I have not problem with these. So you should know that when I recommend this article, I am recommending it for another reason.<br /><br />@ Anglican Girl -- I could not understand your comment.Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-64949859468791854422010-01-26T13:25:46.261-05:002010-01-26T13:25:46.261-05:00I keep thinking about objections to Narrative Herm...I keep thinking about objections to Narrative Hermeneutics, some of which the Friendly Atheist points out. The key is not to rely just on Narrative Hermeneutics but on reason, experience, tradition, science, and the modern critical methods. All of these point to a larger truth. To use the image Luke likes to use often: "These methods are like the finger pointing to the moon but we best not confuse the two."Anglican Gurlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-84947314656897586542010-01-26T11:01:07.552-05:002010-01-26T11:01:07.552-05:00Another seminarian posted a similar post, so check...Another seminarian posted a similar post, so <a href="http://lofitribe.com/the-truth-of-myth/#more-4049" rel="nofollow">check out his post</a>... i like Post cereal... wow.. lots of posts around here....Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734930079710820207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-47353091964979635592010-01-26T10:14:36.783-05:002010-01-26T10:14:36.783-05:00Boz,
I too am usually weary of such statements, ...Boz, <br /><br />I too am usually weary of such statements, but if you listen closely, we're making them all the time. for example, in science Darwin and the majority of science up until recently had stated that "Genes are fixed and can never be changed by the individual. Only through generations of adaptation and mutation can genetics change in a species." then along comes Epigenetics and blows that whole idea right out of the water. we're finding, thanks to scientists in the upper reaches of Sweden, that genes can be effected by our actions and effect our offspring in THE VERY NEXT generation.<br /><br />facts will only take us so far. our view of them is limited and we often miss the wider picture and the complex, interconnectedness of reality that i believe only story can really get at. so even our closely held "facts" can be falsified at any minute when we make or find a new epiphany/evidence/connection. stories however, last much longer and are much more powerful than the straight facts.<br /><br />Sabio,<br /><br />I will work on a rebuttal but my first thought is "so?" there are things story gets at that facts can't. Facts aren't emotional and only tell one part of the story. take for example two ways of telling a "true" story:<br /><br />Fact: Last Thursday, I was walking Eve and my dog Sonny around the park around 4 p.m. when I spotted two red-tailed hawks eating something. They were approximately 2 feet tall and were about 25 yards away. One flew up into the tree as we approached.<br /><br />Story: I was feeling at peace walking my daughter and dog around the park as I usually do at dusk. Imagine my surprise to see a male and female red tailed hawks in the park, so close i could almost touch them! One spread it's wings and flew up in fright as we approached. The other seemed to stare us down, almost daring us to make a move on his meal. The hawk was the size of Sonny and i wasn't about to mess with it! All I could do was stand in awe and think of how lucky i was that my little family got to see this. Even Eve took notice. <br /><br />notice the difference. which story would you remember? stories get at the emotion that facts can't(even though this isn't the best example). a shorter one would be:<br /><br />Fact: Caught a fish 23" long after reeling it in for 1 minute and 35 seconds.<br /><br />Story: I caught a WHALE the other day after battling it for about half the day! I'm the best fisherman in the world!<br /><br />poetry, Sabio, teaches things that facts can't. you can't really verify emotion... and in this case, even if either of these stories happened or not. gotta take it on faith ;-)Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734930079710820207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-68534382931782997062010-01-26T07:23:38.974-05:002010-01-26T07:23:38.974-05:00@ Luke
The link given by Boz (duplicated here) on...@ Luke<br /><br />The link given by Boz (duplicated here) on yesterday's article by Jesse Galef on <a href="http://friendlyatheist.com/2010/01/25/metaphorical-truth/" rel="nofollow">Metaphorical vs. Literal Truth</a> is superb (I just read it). He writes well on an objection I have seen forming in my mind as I have read more and more of the writings of people who embrace Narrative Hermeneutics. <br /><br />If you have time, I love it if you could do another post responding to Galef's essay. Seriously, it is clear and direct about what I feel is an important issue.<br /><br />(Thanx Boz)Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-45980107851703040572010-01-26T05:54:55.457-05:002010-01-26T05:54:55.457-05:00Thanks for the reply, Luke.
I'm wary of state...Thanks for the reply, Luke.<br /><br />I'm wary of statements like:<br /><br />"science cannot [ever] explain the mystery of what or who first brought the raw materials into existence"<br /><br />Because they can never be shown to be true - we would need to wait forever (literally forever) to be assured that this claim is true. Yet it can be falsified at any moment.<br /><br />-<br /><br />A related article about metaphorical truth/story truth , from an atheist perspective:<br /><br />http://friendlyatheist.com/2010/01/25/metaphorical-truth/Boznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-68670601573581700812010-01-25T11:32:57.540-05:002010-01-25T11:32:57.540-05:00Great comment to Boz. One of my favorite stories i...Great comment to Boz. One of my favorite stories is about God giving Adam and Eve clothes made of snake skin. Hey, it has the symmetry so often found in Torah and certainly contains a bit of humor along with quite a profound lesson about emulation, IMO of course. (Genesis 3:21 doesn't specify what kind of skin, we only assume.)<br /><br />Can't get away with the rookie excuse for much longer now so I'll let you slide this time. My 'scholarly' quip comes from a favorite pastime of mine, poking fun at Rabbi about stuffy scholars...Can't resist. Yetzer hara and all that.Yaelhttp://escapingagain.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-37585053652295756752010-01-25T00:47:51.536-05:002010-01-25T00:47:51.536-05:00Boz, Lesson works well. as for explaining further,...Boz, Lesson works well. as for explaining further, i have my interpretations but the main question would be what lessons can you get from such stories? what other interpretations and lessons are out there? what do rabbi's and preachers have to say about these? you'll find a ton! my take is mine, what matters is for you to find yours. there's a sense of play i feel that we here in the West miss with stories. we tend to get frustrated and what to deal in binaries. i don't think the world is just black and white and neither should our stories deal in just those terms either. <br /><br />Cosmogony can only go so far in explaining the mystery of how things came to be and whether there was nothing and what brought it into existence. science has its limits and this is one i don't think we'll ever get over. thus i must re-phrase that sentence to say "science cannot explain the mystery of what or who first brought the raw materials into existence."<br /><br />like the old Zen phrase "picture nothing." i love it as it can't be done. in picturing nothing i picture something. <br /><br />Yael, i think you're right on about stories "assume God but don't prove God." rookie seminarian mistake ;-)<br /><br />what i mean to say was that the 'lesson' gleaned about the nature of God was never meant to be learned through a literal lens nor to be taken as science. Form helps place stories that were never supposed to be read literally like Genesis or Jonah or the parables, and helps readers not miss the whole narrative and thus the points these stories are making. the truth is in the META aspect not the 'nugget' of scientifically verifiable data we can get. Rabbis have known this for a long while yet didn't have a name for what they were doing.Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03734930079710820207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-41586429303890914552010-01-23T19:39:09.173-05:002010-01-23T19:39:09.173-05:00Just a couple comments...
I would disagree with t...Just a couple comments...<br /><br />I would disagree with the same statement Boz questions. I see Torah assuming God but never proving God; these stories teaching us about God as perceived in Biblical times rather than proving anything specific about God. <br /><br />Otherwise I liked your post. Interesting how I've never heard this spoken of in terms of form criticism. That sounds so scholarly for something we've been doing for thousands of years without really even thinking about it I suppose. Not that we don't have our literalists as well..but even they allow for many levels of meaning. <br /><br />The same ones who think Christians must read the bible literally think I must read the bible (Christian version only of course) literally as well and allow for no other POV. So nice such broadmindedness.Yaelhttp://escapingagain.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-33411494532158988082010-01-22T21:58:28.196-05:002010-01-22T21:58:28.196-05:00op said: "The story truths of the Creation, t...op said: "The story truths of the Creation, the Fall, the Flood, and the Babel dispersion are truths for religious traditions because they prove that God created the world and has an active role in reality."<br /><br /><br />Can you explain this further? How do (these particular) non-factual, lesson-teaching myths prove anything about reality?<br /><br /><br />op said: "It [science] does not attempt to explain the mystery of what or who first brought the raw materials into existence" <br /><br />The field of cosmogony studies the big bang.Boznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9312888.post-51567070221412940192010-01-22T21:46:05.507-05:002010-01-22T21:46:05.507-05:00would it be fair to substitute the phrase 'sto...would it be fair to substitute the phrase 'story truth' with 'lesson'?<br /><br />Do they have very similar meanings?Boznoreply@blogger.com